Navigating the Publishing Process

In the dynamic world of business partnerships, unexpected paths often lead to remarkable outcomes. This blog post chronicles the journey of two collaborators who embarked on a short-term project with divergent interests but found themselves immersed in the intricate world of publishing. Beginning with a focus on project management and blog post writing, their collaboration soon expanded into uncharted territories as they explored new avenues within the publishing realm.

At the heart of this narrative lies the story of adaptation and growth, as both collaborators navigated through challenges and embraced opportunities for learning. From building systems and spreadsheets to delving into manuscript creation and author interaction, their journey underscores the importance of flexibility and the willingness to explore different roles. Through trial and error, they discovered the value of simplicity in systems and the significance of understanding each author's unique journey in the publishing process.

As they reflect on their experiences, they share insights gained from experimenting with various marketing strategies, such as Pinterest, and the realization that focusing on niche areas yields better results than spreading oneself too thin. Ultimately, their collaboration exemplifies the power of resilience, creativity, and continuous learning in the ever-evolving landscape of business partnerships.

Episode Transcript

Hello, friends. We are here for another episode of the Press Publish Podcast. And this is going to be a different episode than you've heard before. And admittedly, it might be the most personal episode that we've published on the podcast so far. Because the guest here today is someone who has been working behind the scenes, actually even making this podcast happen, along with being my partner in crime and publishing multiple books with authors and Helping build a publishing company and even publish a book together.

So, here is the best part about this story, is that Lauren is going to tell you about herself and a few things that her and I have in common, even though we had no idea that they would be in common when we were first introduced. So, Lauren, welcome to today's episode. Thanks Thank you. It's crazy to be on the front end for the first time.

We've gone through so much together, but it's finally here. It's here and it's only because I'm twisting your arm and I'm begging you and I'm asking you to be at least out front in voice and not on camera. Yeah, no, I, I appreciate it. I need to need to get the push out of my comfort zone, but it's so easy having a conversation with you.

So I'm just going to let it roll. We're just going to go with it. Like we are on a regular Google meet on a regular Monday and we'll see what happens. So, Lauren, you and I were introduced through one of your mutual friends who I had worked on a couple other projects with, and it was really funny when your name popped up in my email as an introduction of two people who she thought might work well together.

Yeah. Your last name is Galloway, which is also my name. made a name, which was only my name at the time in which we were introduced. I wasn't even married yet. And then we realized that we came from the same exact part of Ohio with the same last name. And we literally had no clue that each other existed.

And we have no family members that are connected to each other. Oh yeah. Ohio runs deep, deep in the mud. I feel like people from Ohio always seem to find themselves back to each other, no matter how far you go. Like, I'm currently in Norfolk, Virginia, near Virginia Beach. You're still in Ohio, yet we seem to find our way back to Ohio together.

It's true, because I moved away as well, actually even closer at one point to Virginia, and then came back. And it is interesting when people see alignment of personalities and work styles. that there often seems to be a pattern of either just Midwest in general, or to Ohioans being like, no, no, no, I think they're going to get you.

No, 100%. I totally agree. It's great. And so when you and I started working together, we had set up this like short term project, right? We were like, okay, let's sort of beta test it, see what happens. And you were really interested at that time in only project management. Yeah. Right? You really just wanted to work behind the scenes, you wanted to do some writing of some blog posts, you wanted to learn some, some tips and tricks related to publishing.

Um, and do you even remember how that started to unfold for you and then how you got more interested in publishing beyond your initial expectations? Yeah, so I'm gonna take a little, a couple steps back, because at the beginning of 2023, I was coming off of a previous job as a personal trainer, so my background is nowhere near publishing or the project management side of things.

Um, and I wanted to start something new. And so whenever we had connected, I really kind of was taking a shot in the dark. I was like, well, the first meeting, the first meeting we had together, I was like, Oh, well, she seems really cool. Very inspiring person. I'd love to just see what I can learn from you.

And. And just kind of see where it takes us. So, yeah, I think starting with the blog posts, I was like, okay, I actually kind of like this. And then, um, it kind of got my flow in writing in the mornings. And then, um, Yeah, I just kind of evolved into a couple more projects. You were like, hey, do you want to dip your toes in the water over here?

And I was like, oh heck yeah, I want to try kind of everything right now. I'm still, I was 23 at the time, so I'm only 24 now, but 23 just feeling like I'm still trying to figure really what I want to do in the long term. Um, so I was kind of excited to try everything and then. We really got into a handful of more projects and I was like, Oh, wow, I'm pretty good at building systems and spreadsheets and really figuring out how to take a project from beginning to end and maintaining the timelines, maintaining, um, our goals and objectives and things.

So I think It is crazy to think back to be like, Oh, I just started working on blog posts, but it really did evolve into helping Habitize publishing, build out structures and systems and make the publishing side a little bit more effective, even though I wasn't fully in publishing at the time. And then, yeah, I think.

It was, the business got, took off pretty well, and we were like, Okay, we need to ramp up the actual publishing work on my end, and then from there, it just evolved. I mean, you really were open to seeing where this took both of us. Um, you were also very gracious as someone who did not have kids and family of your own to accept what my lifestyle was with multiple kiddos.

Um, and his summer approach for me is my first time having to manage three kids and a home renovation project. You were so kind and saying, okay. My skill set is creating systems and the business was taking off and it was really difficult to manage personal life and all the things I had to juggle along with all the clients we were having and you were committed to a customer service experience that made them feel as if there was not chaos behind the scenes.

Right. So you started to create these spreadsheets that just really kind of blew us away and made the publishing process have a really clear checklist for what we would do for each author, who we need to communicate with, when, and then also on the sort of forward facing, how to share what we've accomplished with.

social media, blogs, right? A podcast periodically. And so can you talk through how you started to see kind of this spreadsheet compared to an online platform project management tool, right? Is being the best solution to help manage all of these steps? Yeah, yeah, I think, for one, spreadsheets are just how my brain personally works, and I know we would have Monday meetings where essentially we'd have a pretty big, a pretty big brain dump.

We'd be like, alright, here's some goals and objectives for the week, for the next two weeks, and the best way that I could provide value for you, our clients, was, alright, We need a list, we need a spreadsheet, we need drop down menus, and we need checklists. So, I know we played around a lot with project management systems, we've tried Asana, I know there's a couple other ones that we didn't dive into, but it just didn't seem worth it, because at the end of the day, after using Asana for maybe a couple of days, It's fabulous, it can color code things, it's wonderful, but for our particular brand and system throughout the week, it was just, we always went back to Excel Spreadsheet because it's, it's just so user friendly, and I think we both understood that very well, it was rather than both of us needing to go learn Asana, learn the buttons, learn all the little tricks, it was, Excel was a quick type it in a list, but Put a dropdown menu and we can tag each other.

We can do everything. So yeah, I think a learning, a lesson learned in that area was it's okay to just be simple. Sometimes you don't need to pay for fancy, for fancy tools. When you're really just going to add more work to then go and learn the thing. You're going to then have to put it all together and get people trained and used to it.

And at the time we did have another team member. And it was like, okay, well, let's weigh pros and cons of having her also use it. And is it really worth it to train her on it and try and get her used to it when Excel was just beautiful and you could also color code it yourself. So, yeah, I think, I think that was huge being able to help each week feel more organized when you were.

in mom mode some weeks and it was like I needed to just kind of take over and have our objectives and goals met that week and keep clients happy and communicated with and not left behind. It really saved us. in so many ways, as you pointed out. Plus it was this reminder that sophisticated systems aren't always the best path.

Um, and I think after you and I had that example in the business, As other more complicated suggestions would come our way, months down the road, we'd be like, oh, but wait. That one time when we remember that spreadsheets were our solution. Mm-Hmm. . We don't need to go down these paths. And so it would give us these reference points.

To say that staying simple is really the best way to grow. Yeah. And not overinvest in the admin work. Yeah, for sure. And focus on the client work. And so, so then you stuck, with the systems, you gave us a great set of tools where we could organize each client, , payments coming in, payments going out, again, due dates that we had, and then you decided, but now I'm ready to be creative.

And you started to just sort of shadow me initially in the creation of manuscripts and working with illustrators. And can you talk about how you went from spreadsheets To then, okay, now I want to dive into books, and I want to start to see how that part comes together. Yeah. So it's funny, I would say my brain is a little funky.

I have the super creative side, but I have the super systematic, um, boring drop down menu side. Um, but yeah, I, I think I don't belong in a place that puts me in a box where I'm just creative 24 7, but I definitely do get into flow state with, um, Canva, designing things, making something aesthetically pleasing, pretty, like, cohesive with a brand.

I do have that side that just, like, tickles my brain in the right way. So, I started shadowing you with publishing, and I was like, Oh my gosh, Canva is my thing. I love working in Canva. I love being able to figure out the fonts, the color choices, the education in the back of the book, where we would develop some I mean not anything like crazy design heavy, but it would be very unique to the book and that definitely made the experience working together very interesting and cool because I was kind of like Again, still trying to figure out in the long term what I want to be doing with my time And recognizing that like career wise recognize or what I want to do with my time and recognizing that I do enjoy the creative aspect was a very cool realization And then I also liked the aspect of just getting to communicate more with the authors.

I did a little bit more hands on emailing with them, , messaging about just certain design choices, font choices, how would you like to change this, and of course most of the design was through the illustrator, um, and the client, but in terms of canva and layouts and everything, I feel like that was a very cool experience to tap into that side of the work, um, And yeah, just grow more skills in different areas that I never thought I would get into, especially thinking about myself two years ago working in a gym.

It's, it's a very, it's very cool evolution of life. And you did, you just kept trying new ideas. And I remember at some point in time, um, you know, where the, where the book creation really took off for you. It was clear to me that you were not just. Going to like start a manuscript and then walk away like you had the ability to do the layouts and put all the pieces together.

And I remember you also at that time, learning more about the author perspective in the process. Right, because before it was just a checklist, like, oh, right, I know they have to do these things. But then you got to experience the author side of it where they would give you feedback, right? Sometimes feedback we agree with, sometimes feedback we didn't agree with, but it's their book, right?

So we would publish. Um, And it was just interesting to see how then the two of us could play off each other in figuring out how the, not the tasks, but bringing a book to life actually worked. Right. Yeah, I think it was, it was a fun game of one learning to have a little bit tougher skin when you, um, receive feedback that you, yes, you might not necessarily agree with, but it's again the author's book.

It's their passion project. You can provide feedback back to them and say, here's our expertise opinion. From maybe like a logistic side or from previous experience of that, we've seen that what went well, what didn't, um, but at the end of the day, it is just honoring what the author sees in their vision and stepping back and being like, Oh, I totally see where you're coming from and wanting that author to be super proud of the work that they put out.

So yeah, it was definitely, it was definitely a fun little game. And then as you were just describing it, it reminded me of the time in which you were like, okay, all right, we can create this very clear email system of your brain went back to the system and was like, okay, so, so week one, we're going to send out these tasks.

And then week two, we're going to send out these tasks. And week three, And we spent time creating this email flow, which in theory does make sense. If you were reading a blog post by someone other than us, or you were following any online course about how to publish, The steps in which we mapped them out were all very logical and made the project for a first time author feel like it had a flow.

But when then you and I tried to implement it, because each author journey is so unique. . Oh yeah. That was one of our very first sticking points and where we realized that part of publishing is always fluid and creative. Mm-Hmm. . And you can't create a system for every part of the process. Right. Yeah. That was a huge learning lesson.

Everyone, everyone's journey For a lack of better words. 'cause we use the word journey way too much . Um, everyone's author journey is truly so different and each week. It's not a cookie cutter process where we're like, Alright, books X, Y, Z are at the same position, ready for publishing. It's all over the place.

So, I think that was a big learning lesson from the project manager side of me where You try to implement something, but you're truly not gonna know how that works. Like, you can build something and make it really pretty, you can make it really effective in theory, but then putting it to practice is a whole different game.

You'll receive feedback that this didn't work, this didn't work, or we're like, oh, this doesn't apply to that author at all, so we're just gonna totally scrap email 5. So, I think putting it to practice, in terms of systems is huge and I think we learned to like have grace and be grateful for the learning lessons even if in the moment we're like, oh wow, we might have wasted a good five hours doing that.

But you can't learn until you try, so I think that is huge. Yeah, we I still reference it at times from like, it still makes sense. It's logical. We should have been able to do this. Um, and there probably would have been a strategy, right? If we had every author at the first of the month, right, start in the same place, that system would have made sense.

You know, our business was really a flexible model, um, which then made us flexible when it came to after the book was published. And as you and I helped so many authors publish books and launch their author, like sales and marketing experience, I think that's really where you and I spent the most time talking towards the end of this last year together of how do we support authors after.

they're invested and we felt invested and their books would get out to market and the responses that they would have were just really all over the place. Right. And you and I really learned a lot about how difficult it is to sell a book that you've self published even more than producing it in the first place.

Yeah, for sure. And I think we spent, we had a good chunk of our Monday meetings just brainstorming that because I was new ish, definitely new for me and new ish for you as well, so it was a lot of learning lessons and I feel like that time was It almost felt like a lot of research. We were communicating with authors constantly, getting feedback.

What went well for you? What have you tried? Um, what kinds of events have you put your book in? What have you, how have you promoted? So it was a lot of, it was a lot of learning towards the end of the year as we were wrapping up actual manuscript creation and a lot more of the back end. Okay, well what next?

How have you, and we would have come to us, well how have other authors Um, receive more sales or how they promoted their books and that was, yeah, a big learning lesson for us to just to expand on our own knowledge to help others. And we even tried things that we saw on the intranet that people would describe as being a good strategy, right?

Like you and I learned Pinterest. And you and I learned podcasting and you and I went through the IG Instagram strategies and then we scaled back on the Instagram strategies, right? We went over, like we tried as many different approaches as authors heard were good ideas. And What was at least one for you that you were like, man, I really think this is going to be it.

And it didn't take off as much as you thought it would. Yeah, I think with, I think Pinterest was one of the bigger ones that At the very beginning, you post a couple and the algorithm throws it on people's pages and you're like, Oh my gosh, it received 30 views, which in, which when you step back, you're like, wait, 30 views, Lauren, what are you talking about?

But for us, we were like, who are these 30 viewers? You know, we threw this out there. We had no followers on our Pinterest. So it was like, it was getting some views. And then it would go up every time you would post your monthly viewers, we went up to like 3, 000 viewers per month, which again, grand scheme of things, not a ton, but for our little publishing company, it was like, holy crap, there's 3, 000 people from somewhere in the world seeing our stuff, and then we learned After I had a vacation, uh, holidays happened, Aaron you were gone, like, The Pinterest scaled down a little bit, and those viewers went from crazy numbers to, Okay, this is not worth the time, , Cause it really is a numbers game.

So, and I think it just comes down to you want, you should focus your time on in niche areas and focus it in one or two specific areas rather than spreading yourself thin, trying to do all things at once, which with Pinterest, we were trying to do all things at once. So if you had not said Pinterest, I would have been surprised because that was the one that, you know, you were most excited about and you invested in and you saw great potential out of the gate.

And it was fun, right? It wasn't like trying to build this community over on Instagram and trying to do something over on Facebook that required being at certain places at certain times, it was like, Pinterest felt like it was a natural fit, , because we also had a ton of content at that point. And so we were like, well, let's just get it up on Pinterest.

It's one picture and you direct them back to a specific landing page. And you're exactly right. Like every form of marketing, unless we had fully committed to it, it was, it didn't have the potential to take off over the long haul because we were also trying to do like authors do Instagram. So there's something Pinterest or, um, Facebook.

So there's something, a website, like we were trying to do multiple strategies. Um, Even though Pinterest, we both at first were like, this is near and dear to our heart. We're so excited. Oh yeah, for sure. It's kind of like thinking about what you need to do versus what you have to do, or what you want to do versus what you have to do.

We really wanted to do Pinterest and we wanted it wanted to see it flourish, but in terms of what makes sense with our time, what's going to reach the most people, and for what our brand was looking to do, it was, yeah, it just didn't make sense. No, I know. But then we, you know, at least we were open to talking about it, right?

No one forced a plan beyond it's what we were seeing. And I think it about that time is when Fall really came into play, and we had already done quite a few books at that point. There was a couple that were just on the horizon of actually starting to wrap up that had started earlier in the year. And that's when you and I decided to put out our own book.

Right. And see what would happen then. Then we're like, okay, let's try another new idea. And let's see where this takes us. And you and I together came up with the idea of Spilled Confetti. And, you know, we did bring in another writer with us who had been as part of our team throughout the year as well.

And together, You got to write and she got to write and I did as well. And then together you and I did the whole design. And how did that project feel for you as like a culmination of all that you have learned over the past year? Yeah, I think, Well, first of all, whenever it was finally published, I was like, wow, it really does feel cool to have your name on a book.

It's like, you see all of these other authors becoming authors, and even if my name is just under contributor, it's still kind of like, that book is out there, and it's like, people are buying it, and people are interested in writing reviews about it, and like, your name is on that. So that is a very cool experience, um, getting to, you know, Yeah, just pour your hard work into something and then being recognized.

So, that's nice. I think as a culmination, um, Yeah, it was interesting to just, instead of communicating with, going back and forth with a client, per se, and having it be our own work, and our Monday meetings turned into brain dumps about, uh, spilled confetti, it was definitely very cool to be able to work on that together, and since the book was about, or it is about, Lessons learned in self publishing.

It was really nice to be able to reflect on the year we've had and be able to share those experiences in another way. Like we have the podcast that we've shared experiences on, but these were really from kind of just like truly our experiences and lessons learned in more of like a motivational format, which I think was huge just in terms of, I don't know, helping to inspire authors to just keep going.

So yeah. And then there's the whole design piece to it. That was just interesting. We went through multiple iterations, spend some time loving an idea, and then we finished. Um, found a whole new design, all new colors, and we were like, oh gosh, you can't even look at the old design because the colors we chose were just so different and not the vibe that we were going for.

So I think that was a big lessons lesson learned was at the beginning. We had a lot of fire, and we were ready to go, and we just started getting stuff on paper, got stuff on paper, and then it was like, oh, it's just not hitting. It's not what we want to have our name on, so it was like, okay, let's try something else.

Let's just keep, keep brain dumping, keep figuring, like, keep doing new iterations, and then we eventually came out. With the design that we have now, and we were like, oh my gosh, that feels so good. So I think we always preach, not preach, but we share with authors, just start. Like, the biggest thing to overcome is, you're thinking about doing it over and over, and it's like, the biggest hurdle is to literally just start.

And even if it's not the product that you might end up with, it will get you to where you need to be. Like, if we hadn't just started, where if I hadn't been like, Erin, I'm just gonna start writing some stuff, and, or if you were like, Lauren, we need to just go do this now, I'm gonna go look for these designs on wherever we, wherever we found them, then, yeah, I just wouldn't have, we would not have been here with the book published today.

So, yeah, the author. Themselves taught us so much. Yeah. And I remember at this point in time in working together, you and I also got more diligent about how we blocked our time. But I think if we had started the idea of Spilled Confetti earlier in 2023, we probably would have almost like dropped all other things and said like, no, this is the project we're going to give all our attention to.

Because we learned so much over the year, by the end, we were like, okay, let's give it one hour today. And wherever we get in that one hour is where we're going to get the project. And then we're going to go to the next day and wherever we get one hour there, but we had learned enough. that our creative brains could take the entire day over if we wanted them to, at the risk of not getting administrative tasks done or the risk of getting, um, author projects finished.

Right. And I think that's similar that a lot of other authors experience is that they can let their particular book project really take over their personal life or their business life. Um, and not necessarily get better results from that time investment. Yeah. And you and I tried to figure out, can you do a book and compartmentalizing it and still get a return?

And I'm grateful that we were able to, to put out a product. We're both so excited about, but not have it like take everything else over. Yeah, for sure. Time blocking was huge. Just being, just setting the intention of, all right, setting a 30 minute timer on my phone. I'm going to finish whatever task we felt was highest priority.

And then that's it. It's a, that's it. thing for tomorrow. , I feel like that was a lot more productive as well. Cause you're right. I mean, I could sit on Canva for 12 hours and if it's not perfect, then I could sit there for hours until it's perfect. So I think in terms of, , yeah, or just what makes the most sense and efficiency is yeah.

Blocking the time. Yeah. And it really. You know what, what we did not do. Admittedly, people are like, Oh, did you follow all your own book marketing advice? And I was like, Hmm, we didn't really do that. We were, the project felt so personal to me that I wanted to get it out in multiple ways that had nothing to do with the sales.

And that's probably not the best business minded approach. But I really felt like personally, I wanted to get it out as a tribute to my mom for you and me. I wanted to get something for ourself out because we had invested an entire year, what felt like in a lot of other people. And I was like, at that point, I wanted to do something for you and I together.

And so we did not, we did not follow all the great book marketing strategies that you and I have learned over the year, , other than some pretty solid sales copy and keywords, but, um, it didn't really matter to me. That part was like, the sales will come in the right time and place, but I was really proud of the work that we did and then incorporating quotes and comments from other authors in the book that were part of our experience over the past year.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think Also with going off of that where at the end of the day the sales will come, it's, I don't know, it felt a little more special to be in the mindset of like, we're just truly proud of this project and yes, sales will come, like, yes, it's on sale for X amount of dollars, but at the end of the day, it's like, we got to do that together.

We are, you Improving some writer's lives we might have helped someone get a kickstart on their author journey um, so I think that's What's very nice about self publishing and what I appreciated of that for never having self published before and just seeing other people do it was it's more of the appreciation for the experience and Getting to say you did it saying your names on it and being really proud of all the work that you put into it rather than being like, oh man, how are we gonna sell this we We need to we need to ramp up the marketing strategy here.

It's like It'll come. As you look back on an entire year, mainly being a project manager for a publishing company, what would you say to someone else that says like, Oh, I would like to be a project manager for a publishing company. That job sounds really cool. What advice would you give someone now about that particular role in a company?

That's a great question.

I would say if you have an eye for taking the big picture, like a lot of ideas from a visionary, which that visionary might be the CEO of the company, the clients, the stakeholders who come into a project who are interested in it, if you can take the bigger picture, the vision, the goals and objectives, and turn them into actionable steps, Whether that's through a spreadsheet or a project management software, if you can turn them into actionable steps to then make the project run smoothly, then I would say You will have a fun time being a project manager for a publishing company, because again, as we experienced, every project is so different, but if you have that core skill of being able to prioritize major tasks, then each project you, when I say project in this case, each book that you are working on publishing, Um, that's just going to make that project a whole lot easier because it's not cookie cutter.

It's not, not every book is the same, but if you can apply that bigger skill of what is the main goal of this book, what is the timeline, and being able to prioritize the individual tasks to get that book done, then I think you would be off to a solid start. And also, in my experience as a project manager for Habitized Publishing, it was, it was a nice mix of things.

So I would say also being open minded to tapping into the creative side when you need to. Because it wasn't always systems, systems, systems. It was, like, Okay, I'm gonna work on some content creation now and be able to work with the CEO or you in this instance to like piggyback ideas off of one another, kind of being like helping to be that person's thought partner almost as well.

Um, so yeah, being able to brainstorm, help get an idea into fruition, and then also being able to take Accountability for the individual tasks and timeline management. I, there's no question. You came to the team as what all term, like the, a whole to part thinker. You kept thinking of all the steps, but figured out a way to help them not seem overwhelming.

Um, right. People make to do lists that are so long that they're afraid to start. And you helped. me and authors see, yes, there are a lot of steps, but we're going to try to chunk them out in a way in which they don't feel so overwhelming that you never start at all. Um, and you had a really special skill to be able to offer that to people and make, and to reassure others that we're going to get there.

We're going to get there, but you have to create a, a path to get there. Um, And so many authors that we've seen, either before they come to us or we hear their stories, but after they, you know, choose not to work with us, is that they don't create the path. And so it just feels either a overwhelming or very scattered.

And you really helped myself and authors both feel like, okay, we're going to get there. Here's where we're going to go. I'm going to show you. We're just not there yet. Right. Bye bye. Yeah, I think in terms of like putting my project manager hat on here, setting milestones and setting goals midway through project is super helpful.

And when I say milestones, just help. It's like you had said with chunking off major. tasks. It's like, instead of being like, oh my gosh, how am I going to get this book published, it's like, oh no, let's start here. Let's start with illustrations. We don't have to think about anything else until you work with the illustrator, until your sketches, your finalist, but illustrations are perfect, how you want them, they're seeing your vision.

And then it's like, okay, logistics, let's get in that mindset. And instead of, you know, being overwhelmed, like, Oh my gosh, we have to do this. It's like, nope, we're gonna meet this milestone before we even start working on the next tasks to hit the next milestone. So I think that's huge in any project, especially in publishing, um, because it can feel daunting when you are self publishing.

And it's, it's, you know, Yeah, it's a lot of collaboration. It's a lot of moving parts. Well, there is no question this year would not have been what it was without you. There is, there is. no ability within myself to have worked with as many authors to create as many systems to even get to publishing a book at the end of the year that was nowhere on my sort of to do list bucket list for the year.

And I learned so much from you. I really, I I could not even create a laundry list because it would be so long of things that you and I both learned together and things I learned from you. Right. And it really opened my eyes to some people get put in your path, both personally or professionally. And it's, it's unexplainable when they.

are just the right fit and somehow you and I through Ellen became just the right fit and created a really awesome experience for ourselves and so many authors over the past year and I will just be forever grateful for all that you made happen because I couldn't have done it without you. Well, that, makes me feel good.

Cause yeah, I learned so much from you too as someone who I came out of a new job, not wanting or not knowing what I really wanted to do next. And just kind of taking a shot in the dark with a totally new person through a mutual connection. It, Yeah, it definitely, definitely was a crazy time, but learned so much about myself.

And as a project manager, I think at the beginning of all of this, I would have never called myself a project manager, but as we evolved I learned more from you from the company and everything. Then I was like, yeah, I'm truly doing that work. And I truly do really enjoy that. So as a young person trying to figure out life and career choices and things, I am also truly grateful for the experience and also just everyone we met along the way.

So you get to talk to a lot of great people when you are working in a small business for like client facing all the time. So that was very, very cool too. Well, I am so thankful for you. And while we agreed to not continue expanding the publishing company into 2024, um, it wasn't because we didn't see its potential and it wasn't because we didn't enjoy working together.

It was also sometimes in a business journey as you realize that in order to do more, you sort of have to make a choice of, do you want to take the steps to do more, right? You and I, if we had kept going, would have had to create a full agency and we would have had to take on even more clients and, and where you and I knew the business could go did not at this point in time align with both of where our lives are headed individually.

Um, And that is a pretty awesome way to be able to walk away from each other. Is to say like, no, we could do it. There's no question we could do it. It's just doesn't match with where we are at this point in time. And the answer for both of us was no. But then other new doors open and you can't see those coming just yet, which is always a sign that more doors will come our way and this podcast will not end and working together in some way, shape or form is not ending and we'll just come back to another episode and see where the journey takes us then.

Yeah, for sure. It's exciting. Life's exciting.